I found this this morning and think it supports what I was saying two posts down. Tell me there hasn’t been significant and tangible progress in Iraq because of our involvement there. It can be said that this was always possible, that it could have eventually come to this, but there was no such movement in this direction until George W. Bush made the decision to go in and oust Hussein. Even the kids notice the improvements.
Marshal Art's 
the idea is, ONE people, ONE language, ONE culture, and ONE logical, universal set, of commonly accepted greetings, as a unifying, national forceAgain, says who?You are welcome in this great nation, to your opinion. If you wish to say Merry Christmas, knock yerself out. I and everyone else is welcome to my/our opinions. If we wish to say, Happy Holidays, we shall.I shall do so as a matter of respect and decency, dependent upon the circumstances. It’s not the kind of thing I’ll lose sleep over, I’m just saying that just because you and maybe Marshall wish everyone would say Merry Christmas in no way obligates us to bow to your wishes.Happy New Year.
Hashfanatic,Exactly. This is the crux of the culture wars. The assertion that non-Christians have no right to speak…and that somehow it is an assault on Christians for non-Christians to speak.It is inappropriate to say anything but “Merry Christmas”, and it is an affront for non-Christians to say “Merry Christmas” because it is an affront for them to misuse the phrase……so in other words, free speech and freedom is only for Christians.It’s a nice gig, if you can pull it off.
No obligation whatsoever, Dan, except that which SHOULD manifest within each of us. As Hash suggests, this is America where Christmas is celebrated as both a Christian AND secular holiday, and the greeting of “Merry Christmas” is most appropriate out of a sense of national unity, if not a sense of decency. That would be decency as a matter of course, with an assumption that the person to whom you are speaking is an American when one is in America. If THAT person wishes to reply, “Happy Holidays” it is indeed a perogative, but, if done with the intent to denigrate Christian sensibilities, they should reconsider, especially since the spirit of the day is one of Goodwill to all men. As for being “offended” if one is not a Christian to hear such a greeting, that person can simply go pound sand up his ass for being such a jerk at Christmas time.
Hash,You’ve spent a lot of keystrokes suggesting things for which I see no evidence. You say Israel is NOT an ally and never was. This is your sorry opinion. Provide some support for this. You speak of their corruption and crimes. Provide support. You say that the Jews were “indiscriminately hitting targets within gaza that were specifically civilian”. Where do you get this from? I’ve read just the opposite, that the targets were specifically Hamas targets. You make the charge, you must defend it with some kind of link or reference with more credibility than imaginings or anecdotal story-telling. Otherwise, don’t waste my time. Just what do you need to believe another nation is an ally? I reject the charge that Israel has created their own troubles, as I don’t believe that a internationally recognized state of Palestine existed at the time the state of Israel was created. The area known as Palestine was NOT an Arab territory, but an area inhabited by Arabs, Jews and others. I have no doubt that peace in the region will come only with the abdication of hostile intent by the Arabs of the region. Should Israel once again make the first moves, should they once again enter into any agreement is not preceeded by the Palestinians first giving up their hatred for Israel, then Israel will again be attacked and have to defend herself and they will be back to square one. Marty’s idiot former pastor believes that somehow, the ref saw only the second punch thrown and never saw Israel swing first. That is absolute crap. Israel acts in response to the Pallie’s (and Hezb’allah’s) first punch every time. This is not any “neocon” fantasy, but an objective observation of reality. I simply don’t know what game you’re watching, but your view of the situation is totally obscured by something and I don’t care how many trips to the Middle East you’ve made. It hasn’t helped your vision at all. You think Israel’s response is over the top. I know it’s insufficient if they haven’t totally devasted their enemy and forced their compliance with terms of unconditional surrender. You’re obviously a protectionist or isolationist if you are complaining about the aid we send there. Because if you are against that, then you must be even more hacked about aid sent to the Palestinians all these years (until Hamas won the election), as well as aid sent to other nations that don’t much care for us. And we’ve sent aid to other countries that aren’t particularly grateful either. So just how do you propose we deal with any country to which we wish to ally ourselves? Israel is hardly the least grateful to be sure. And it seems to me that other nations don’t have the excuse of constant attacks by their neighbors, an excuse that is totally legitimate.
Teresa,”Exactly. This is the crux of the culture wars. The assertion that non-Christians have no right to speak…”This is crap and nonsense. No one supports this in the least (except for your family). The crux of this “war” is that businesses feel some sense of pressure to be more generic in their celebration of the day out some misplaced concern for a few jerks who think they have some right to not be offended by the religious connotations of the day. As I suggested in a previous comment, such people only have the right to go pound sand up their asses. For the rest of us, we have a right to be hacked that businesses have taken this position, and we have a right to be hacked at those sorry bastards that have provoked it. These sad sacks are pushing the fictitious separation of church and state nonsense out of a sense of selfishness and doing their best to suck joy out of the day for their sake. It is then understandable, if not justifiable, that some Christians are hacked enough to make a stink about it and then take it out at the mere mention of “Happy Holidays”. You want to accuse someone? Accuse the weenies who started it all with this separation crap. They are the true source of this misery.
I started to leave a comment here but it grew too long, therefore, I am transferring my comment, due to it’s length, over at my place in the form of a blogpost.
Marshall Art,So you blame Paine, Madison and Jefferson?Hashfanatic just said that individuals have to say it, and he gave a long-winded retort that basically seems to say that people deserve to have someone get in their face if they don’t say “Merry Christmas”, and if someone tried to stop and assault, they deserve to get beaten.Last I checked, I am not a friend or reletive of Hashfanatic.Also, I noticed that your zeal for citations fails where he is condcerned. He basically gave a completely alternative run-down of the event I cited, and you never once asked him for links. Interesting.
“You speak of their corruption and crimes.”and you’re incapable of seeing any of them, and bound to deny all of them, but i’ll throw something together later, after i’ve had several cups of coffee, and i can express myself in a manner you won’t find inflammatory, loli’d say that, offhand, you can justify gush katif, lebanon, jonathan pollard, the federal reserve system, madoff, agriprocessors, sabra and shatilla, the uss liberty, and the continued existence of mark steyn, while simultaneously condemning mordechai vannunu, you’re not going to be open to any of the information i provide on the subject anywaybecause these are all manifestations of the three-hundred pound elephant in the living room, and why i equate zionism to fundamentalist muslim theology, in terms of clear and present threats to american security and societal integrity, the world over”You make the charge, you must defend it with some kind of link or reference with more credibility than imaginings or anecdotal story-telling. Otherwise, don’t waste my time….”this sums up my “sorry opinion” on the subject far more succinctly than i ever couldand don’t be such a grumpy old man, you have no horse in this race, whether you realize it or not, LOL!http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/12/30/israel-from-mensch-to-bully/“I have no doubt that peace in the region will come only with the abdication of hostile intent by the Arabs of the region…”i’ve already explained that “peace in the region” is no longer possible, particularly when the “peace” itself, is nothing but a liefrankly, i don’t even support such a contrived peace, but i’m firmly opposed to my tax dollars going to support this farce, as well as the bloodshed that supports it”Should Israel once again make the first moves, should they once again enter into any agreement is not preceeded by the Palestinians first giving up their hatred for Israel, then Israel will again be attacked and have to defend herself and they will be back to square one…”that’s israel’s problem, let american jews and the useful idiots who worship them support their brothers, without my nation’s financial and tactical support”You think Israel’s response is over the top. I know it’s insufficient if they haven’t totally devasted their enemy and forced their compliance with terms of unconditional surrender…”and that’s precisely what i mean about neocons who blindly follow a discredited playbook and support the interests of a foreign, sovereign nation, over the interests of their own, and seek to justify it by declaring their protectorate infallible, to insulate themselves from charges of treason, while ingratiating themselves with a failed right-wing ideology and the cabal that supports it
“And it seems to me that other nations don’t have the excuse of constant attacks by their neighbors, an excuse that is totally legitimate.”that was never the issuethe issue was whether or not israel had ceded the high moral ground they’d occupied since the shelling of sderot had commenced, by deliberately targeting civilian neighborhoods when it was totally unnecessary to meet their strategic objectives, which is what some of us are questioningif you cannot accept israeli, and by extension, jewish guilt in this, and in fact, believe israel is justifying in doing ANYTHING they want to their warsaw ghetto, how can you claim to be objective about the entire question?
“Hashfanatic just said that individuals have to say it…”no, i didn’t, teresa, i am simply saying, don’t complain about wackadoodles on the right carrying on about a “war on christmas”, when there IS a war on religious freedom in general, and it’s patently obvious that they are correct to point it out”Also, I noticed that your zeal for citations fails where he is condcerned. He basically gave a completely alternative run-down of the event I cited, and you never once asked him for links. Interesting….”teresa, i LIVE here, and am obviously familiar with the totally irrelevant story you posted, it’s not my problem that you never anticipated that, and thought you could get away with posting one-tenth of what actually happened in this instance
I might add that if there is nothing anti-semitic about “The Jews killed Christ”, then that takes away a large part of the basis for calling “Mein Kamph” and anti-semitic document.It also touches on Martin Luther’s “On the Jews and Their Lies”, which forms most of the rest of the basis for Hitler’s writings and actions.But it is funny, because the last time I read my Bible, they didn’t have any descriptions of Jews being the final authority that made the decision to kill him, I don’t recall the scourging being administered by Jews, nor they Jews marching him at spear-point up to the cross, pounding in the nails, checking to make sure he was dead, etc.In fact, it seems to me that the person most responsible for Jesus’ death was Jesus.I mean, he planned it out before he was even born, made a series of concious decisions to follow the plan during the course of his life, and didn’t use his fancy God power to save himself from the cross.Doesn’t seem right for the punishment to be heaped on the Jews for that. Although Martin Luther clearly disagreed, and the fact that he used that simple sentiment to lay out a plan for genocide that was later followed just isn’t important, because he was a Christian, and just saying a fact “every Christian knew”.got it.
“You’re obviously a protectionist or isolationist if you are complaining about the aid we send there…”ABSOLUTELY, they are cornerstones of true conservatism, american conservatism, as opposed to the nation-building malarkey and globalist free-trade myths the interlopers brought in, and subsequently destroyed our nation and distinct societyand, clearly, you are not done with us yet, i accept that
Hashfanatic,So, if you live there, and if the story was so wrong, and if you were an eye witness, you could certainly come up with some story or report that corroborated your observation of what happened…You introduce facts that had to come from somewhere…so where did they come from? I’d like to know?You say that the man who was beaten escalated the encounter…but you don’t say what specific action escalated it, don’t provide a source other than that you seem to be an eye-witness. Normally that would be enough for me, but since it seems to contradict the story of other eye-witnesses, I’d like to have a little information. Also, you say that the man who tried to help was illegal. It would be helpful if you could tell how you know that, and also if you could explain why it is a bad thing that an illegal alien decided to try to aid a citizen in distress. An argument could be made that they are coming here and taking away all of our assault-stopping opportunities from our citizens, but clearly, he was just stopping an assault that no citizens wanted to stop, so I don’t understand what the harm is.
You say that the man who was beaten escalated the encounter…but you don’t say what specific action escalated it, don’t provide a source other than that you seem to be an eye-witness…”teresa, the article itself clearly stated that adler escalated the conflict…the “christkiller” statement was made in response to the “hannukah” silliness, and that’s exactly where it should have all been dropped, but adler allowed his mouth to override his ass without realizing he was out of his element, hence, he got clocked, end of story”It would be helpful if you could tell how you know that, and also if you could explain why it is a bad thing that an illegal alien decided to try to aid a citizen in distress….”it came out later, on local tv news reports, when adler continued to hype his story, that the bangladeshi kid was here on an expired student visa…in fact, a case was made for an extension of it, based on his alleged heroismin fact, iirc, two of the russian chicks adler was squiring around that night decided to get in on the act, and THEY suddenly and mercifully disappeared from the public eye, when their immigration status was called into question, by a curious public, and they suddenly disappeared from view, LOL!and it is most definitely a wonderful thing for ANYONE to help another out “in distress”, in fact, there was a time when that was the norm and not the exception in this nationhowever, what part of the word “illegal” do you not understand?i don’t care if he saved the big three, cured cancer, and singlehandledly spearheaded a successful campaign to restore pringles salt and vinegar potato chips to their rightful place on my supermarket’s shelvesif he is here illegally, he is here illegally, and that would indicate to me, that it is time for him to go, and it really IS that simple
“In fact, it seems to me that the person most responsible for Jesus’ death was Jesus…”teresa, statements like this are why i don’t get into apologetics and theological/denominational discussions online, outside of my own circlesthe point remains, we continue to have freedom of speech in this country, and we continue to have freedom of religion in this country, so, regardless of what the (drunken) guy said, adler was in the wrong for escalating the situation and turning it into a full-blown beef, which he lost
“You are welcome in this great nation, to your opinion. If you wish to say Merry Christmas, knock yerself out. I and everyone else is welcome to my/our opinions. If we wish to say, Happy Holidays, we shall…”dan? was any of this ever in question?do you seriously envision me stalking shopping malls, accosting hapless, politically correct department store cashiers, brandishing a gaultier jumper in one hand and a louisville slugger in another?my assessment of the failure of our minds to meet on this, dan, is that you live in one, particularly distinct and separate environment, and i live in another particularly distinct and separate environment, and our experiences in life so vastly differ from one another, that it is impossible for us to relate to one another’s concernsso i’ll spare us further requests for clarification and accept your queries for what they are, rather than what i would have them represent, to the world at large
teresa?your trotting out of that ridiculous story reminded me of something!now…adler? NOT “antisemitism”…want a REAL example of an REAL antisemitic attack, only a few stations down?read, and watchhttp://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=11165THAT is an example of an antisemitic attack, not a drunken, whose-is-bigger throwdown between foolish punks who ought to have known better, and STILL felt the need to exploit their victimhood, for maximum effect
Hashfanatic,So, when Christians yell about Jews being Christ killers and beat them up, it’s NOT anti-sematism, but when Muslims yell Allah Akbar and beat up Jews it is?Got it.
Hashfanatic,On your urging, I went looking for mor information about the story. I found a site that has pictures of the brave and innocent Christmas Warriors who were so provoked by the terrible behavior you describe from the Jews.They are from the prime suspect’s girlfriend’s Facebook page.http://www.nypost.com/seven/12122007/news/regionalnews/12122007_thugs/photo01.htmAnd the guy apparently plead guilty to a hate crime against a black guy in 2005……sounds to me like the kind of person that you could “escalate” a situation with by blinking.
“I found a site that has pictures of the brave and innocent Christmas Warriors who were so provoked by the terrible behavior you describe from the Jews….”LOL, i never painted him as a choirboy, dear!hence, my use of the term “punk” in my description?nonetheless, punks abound in all places where human beings congregate, it does not change the fact that adler got what he deserved, for goading the drunken punk into throwing down on himthat’s life in the big city, for better or for worse, “antisemitism” never entered into the equationso, teresa, you get a big fat FAIL on this one, but, we’re cool, try again if you like! 🙂
Teresa & Hash,Take your irrelevant discussion to one of YOUR blogs. I'm not interested, which is why I never asked for Hash to support his comments regarding it. I never looked at the story since it has nothing to do with the topic of the post. In fact, Hash's unsupported anti-Israeli attacks don't either, but at least the topic dealt with something in the Middle East.
Hash,You keep insisting that the Israelis are intently bombing indiscriminately, when this is false and the targets have been Hamas targets. This is the type of statement that requires support. You seem to think that developing ties with other nations equates to forsaking our own sovereignty or sense of priorities regarding allegiances. This is stupid and baseless. Of course my allegiance is to my country first, but that does not mean that I would forsake our friends. And amongst our friends and alliances, none are as put upon by their neighbors as is Israel. They still retain the moral highground no matter how punishing their response to impotent Hamas attacks. They retain it not due to the success of the attacks against them, but by the consistency and ongoing nature of the attacks as well as by the hatred behind it. Like a child who refuses to listen, where the response to the child’s continued offense escalates to yelling, spanking, grounding, etc., Hamas and their supporters are due for far greater punishment than Israel has yet provided.And by the way, there is no such thing as a “failed conservative ideology”. There has only been a failure to stick to the ideology. The conservative philosophy works as history repeatedly shows.
One more thing. I don’t “refuse” to see anything regarding alleged Israeli offenses. I simply haven’t been shown any, either by you or by the mainstream press which has always perpetrated the false notion that Israel is just as responsible for the strife in that region.
“In fact, Hash’s unsupported anti-Israeli attacks don’t either, but at least the topic dealt with something in the Middle East.”uh, i provided you a link, to a post which encapsulated my opinion on this matterit is you who failed to respond to the points it made
No problem, marshall.I am sorry. It started out at least related to war and Christmas…but no argument, it got off-topic pretty quickly.
“You keep insisting that the Israelis are intently bombing indiscriminately, when this is false and the targets have been Hamas targets. This is the type of statement that requires support.”and i have, indeed four, versus four hundred casualties, would be enough for most to question your erroneous premiseyou can only redirect manufactured outrage to the “israel has a right to defend itself” canard, which no one ever questioned”You seem to think that developing ties with other nations equates to forsaking our own sovereignty or sense of priorities regarding allegiances…”no, unconditionally accepting and supporting crimes by rogue nations that YOU deem “allies” out of partisan allegiance is complicity in murder, it has nothing to do with “allegiances”it is a matter of preserving the lives of another family’s children, while forsaking the lives of your own, using the very moral equivalence you routinely decry in other matters, as a justification”Of course my allegiance is to my country first, but that does not mean that I would forsake our friends. And amongst our friends and alliances, none are as put upon by their neighbors as is Israel. They still retain the moral highground no matter how punishing their response to impotent Hamas attacks. They retain it not due to the success of the attacks against them, but by the consistency and ongoing nature of the attacks as well as by the hatred behind it. Like a child who refuses to listen, where the response to the child’s continued offense escalates to yelling, spanking, grounding, etc., Hamas and their supporters are due for far greater punishment than Israel has yet provided…”and i use your own words, again, as reinforcement that israel and the jewish people ALWAYS come first, above american interests, to the absolute exclusion of american interests, because your support of israel is absolute, and unwaveringlet us know how that ultimately works out for you”One more thing. I don’t “refuse” to see anything regarding alleged Israeli offenses…”of COURSE you do, marshall, this is the very basis of our disagreements on this matter, LOL!this is nothing new, if i post links detailing mistakes or crimes committed by israelis in the middle east, israelis in america, or even american jews, you just scoff at it as “lefty lib propaganda”, and, when i counter with right-wing sources, you deny their existence altogether, LOL!we’ve been down this road before”And by the way, there is no such thing as a “failed conservative ideology”. There has only been a failure to stick to the ideology. The conservative philosophy works as history repeatedly shows….”neoconservatism as a force in american politics is dead and buried, as evidenced by the 2008 election, when americans voted in an empty suit, a foreigner with marxist inclinations, simply because they couldn’t bear bush, couldn’t stand one more minute of bush, and neoconservative policies had utterly failed in every facet that americans felt government should be involved inconservatism was indeed hijacked by the neoconservative movement, its policies were tried on for size and roundly rejected, to potentially disasterous results, and there is really nowhere that conservatism can go, as long as american conservatism and its institutional framework does not purge itself of undesirable neoconservative elements, and the vestiges of faulty policies and the corrupt culture the neocons brought inin short, a radical rethinking, and fundamental shift of values, is required from within, then and only then can the emerging radical left wing and the similarly failed ideals of liberalism can crash and burncontinue as you have, and you’ll get exactly what you got last year
I’d take it to hashfanatic’s blog, but i can’t as he doesn’t give a url.You are welcomed to mine, hash.
an empty suit, a foreigner with marxist inclinationstotally unsupported bullbleep. where do you come up with this stuff?
teresa, i don’t have one, yetjim, that’s my opinion, you are free to agree or disagree! no skin off my back!
Teresa,”I am sorry. It started out at least related to war and Christmas…but no argument, it got off-topic pretty quickly.”No sweat. We’re cool.
Hash,Pardon me if I didn’t review your link fast enough to suit you. I have now, however, and here’s my response:I’ve heard of Johnson and give him props. He’s a man who’s opinion should be respected. That being said, it is only an opinion, and some it based on a guy who’s opinion is suspect, that being Anthony Zinni. You may be aware of the fact that there are those who have always sided with the Palestinians, and in this I’m recalling Lynn Redgrave back in the 70’s, I believe (or is it Vanessa? I can never keep them straight). Zinni could be one of those. That’s fine. Anyone is free to believe what they want about a country or people. That may be true to some extent with Johnson as well. I would not debate Israel’s level of arrogance, nor certainly anyone’s perception of it, though I would debate the perspective of a BBC report on just about anything. Johnson recommends a viewing of that suspect reporting service. But we have seen examples of fabricated and over-exaggerated reports by Arabs/Muslims from incidents, such as the most recent Israeli/Hezb’allah skirmish to which you and Johnson has referred. They routinely go out of their way as being far more victimized than they have a right to. But like yourself, Johnson makes the mistake of comparing the incompetence and impotence of the Hamas attacks to the response by the Israelis. Had it been a one-time attack, your alarm at the Israeli response would elicit no debate from me. But these things have been ongoing since before Gaza was turned over and continued through the recent ignored cease-fire. I say once again that the level of civilian casualties is soley the fault of the Palestinians themselves, for allowing, nay, for purposely placing Hamas targets within their populated areas. All outrage should be directed there, not at Israel, who would not be bombing without provocation. And I don’t know what Johnson thinks of Israeli intel, but I don’t know that I’ve ever heard anyone disparage it. Thus, they are likely aware of what building houses Hamas a-holes and which doesn’t, and should civilians die despite the targeting of these sites, it is because of the purposeful proximity to them. Again, blame Hamas. It is not debatable that attacks on Israel are not made with any concern for civilian centers, as civilian targets are routine. Thus, any moral equivalency is ludicrous.Further, I take exception to any charge that anyone is putting Israel’s interests above our own, specifically my own. This is not the case. To defend the actions of Israel does NOT in anyway support the allegation. It is only defense for their actions, period. The charge is stupid and baseless, particularly without evidence. As far as evidence, you duck the effort to provide any by claiming I’d dismiss it out of hand. I’ve never done so ever on any topic. Crappy evidence is crappy evidence. You may be confusing fact with opinion, a possibility which your Johnson piece seems to support. Be that as it may, I’m always open to whatever you might provide, but I will render an opinion of it one way or the other. If you don’t like the opinion, that’s too bad.Finally, this whole “neoconservatism” label bores me to tears. There is only conservatism and the “neocon” label was applies to demonize a group of conservatives who dared to put together on paper a plan for where they felt the country should go. The merits of that plan has rarely, if ever been addressed directly and the opponents of them have been from some of the goofiest of liberal buffoons. Don’t group yourself among them. You also make the mistake of believing the last election was evidence of rejecting anything but sanity and clear thinking. I will grant that the right has a real problem, but it isn’t with their philosophies. It is with their adherence to those philosophies, and an incomprehensible inability to articulate those philosophies in a manner understandable to more people.
Art, the term, “neocon” means “new Conservative” and it appears it describes much of Hashfanatic’s recent rebirth as a result of what Hash calls, “the pez dispenser’s” election.Give him a break. As all new converts, he has to learn to crawl before he can walk. 😀
“You may be aware of the fact that there are those who have always sided with the Palestinians, and in this I’m recalling Lynn Redgrave back in the 70’s, I believe (or is it Vanessa? I can never keep them straight). Zinni could be one of those…”it’s vanessa, and, incidentally, your audacity in drawing comparisons between redgrave and a retired four-star general of MY military, LOL, is PRECISELY what i’m driving at, when i point out ideologically based allegiances to israel overriding the allegiance of neoconservatives to america!you can speak of such a notion without a trace of irony, LOL!”But like yourself, Johnson makes the mistake of comparing the incompetence and impotence of the Hamas attacks to the response by the Israelis. Had it been a one-time attack, your alarm at the Israeli response would elicit no debate from me. But these things have been ongoing since before Gaza was turned over and continued through the recent ignored cease-fire…”absolutely, and, again, that is why he (and i) take pains to reiterate that hamas is wholly responsible for instigating this latest crisis”But like yourself, Johnson makes the mistake of comparing the incompetence and impotence of the Hamas attacks to the response by the Israelis…”incorrect, i differ with johnson in that, i believe the corrupt and incompetent olmert regime, that you seem to support, was responsible for allowing the attacks on sderot to continue unaddressed for so long, indeed, this intransigence gives credence to the theory that israel used gaza to launch a disproportionate military action, knowing the outrage would spread and engulf the entire middle eastbut that’s not the point i’m trying to drive at, my point is, israel is ostensibly targeting hamas alone, yet trapped palestinians are being slaughtered, not just by the indiscriminate saturation bombing, but the blockage, the fouled water, the blackout, none of which the “bbc” or any other media outlet is capable of concocting, nor do the israelis themselves, ONLY american neoconservatives do, just as american jew haters perpetually concoct israeli offensesi’m aware of this fraudulent dichotomy, it causes me to place every morsel of reporting under the same microscope”It is only defense for their actions, period. The charge is stupid and baseless, particularly without evidence…””As far as evidence, you duck the effort to provide any by claiming I’d dismiss it out of hand. I’ve never done so ever on any topic…”of COURSE you do, and have, because i’ve given you the shortest of litanies on repeated instances in which the state of israel has most definitely NOT been an ally, and you wouldn’t address a single one, and i don’t blame you for it”I say once again that the level of civilian casualties is soley the fault of the Palestinians themselves, for allowing, nay, for purposely placing Hamas targets within their populated areas…”marshall?gaza is not the great plains of the midwest, it is essentially israel’s redux of the warsaw ghetto they were once herded into themselves, crowded, filthy, with no essential servicesit’s not as though there are verdant play zones set up for terrorist organizations to frolic in, and, as far as equivalence is concerned, were not jewish, as well as muslim, puerto rican terror organizations, etc., located within the midst of american population centers during the 1970s? do you wish for me to cite them, chapter and verse?yet, you can easily speak for citizens of other nations and justify the actions of their powers, and claim, well, my neighbor is lobbing coconuts over my fence, let me solve this, by slitting the throat of the child across the streetand i believe i’ve earned credit for even addressing the issue head on, as opposed to other token liberal commenters who hit the dirt, and hide the table in your presence, the moment the word “israel” is mentionedagain, if all military and financial aid to israel, palestine, the gulf nations, etc., if all foreign aid to all nations are reevaluated and adjusted accordingly, you and your new american century will certainly have no beef with me, at that point, you’re free to support israel unconditionally with own your charitable donations, to your heart’s content, and i am once again free to know the fruits of my labors are not unwillingly contributing to my children’s eventual destruction”If you don’t like the opinion, that’s too bad…”very hostile, unwarranted toneto which i respond…”Finally, this whole “neoconservatism” label bores me to tears….”ah, but you are a good soldier, marshall, if you wear the uniform, you should not be ashamed to own up to its label”It is with their adherence to those philosophies, and an incomprehensible inability to articulate those philosophies in a manner understandable to more people…”marshall, any philosophy that cannot clearly articulate itself to a nation it rules over for twenty-eight years, has no reason for existence, much less credencei assert, americans always “got” it, they simply understood the inadequacies of a tired, failed neocon agenda in a post-9/11 america, and rejected it soundly, regrettably by swinging to an equally distasteful and empty extremeso, we wait, and see, i give it all up to a higher authority to sort out anyway, my life does not belong to me
“….recent rebirth….”eeeekk…is that what you think, mark??no, i’m afraid i’d make a poor wingnut, LOL!!i have very traditional opinions on many issues that some consider “conservative”, but others that would most likely cause you to shake your head sadlyhowever, you get points for discerning that it was “that one”, and particularly his wild-eyed followers, that caused me to drop my partisan affiliationat this point, i’m just waiting, watching, searching
Hash,Is your allegiance to a four-star general greater than your allegiance to the nation? I don’t view Zinni with the same respect as a Petraeus or Schwartzkopf. Some military brass are political animals more than military ones. Zinni is amongst the former, in my opinion. In addition, rank does not eliminate a very human propensity to pick sides due to skewed perspectives. It’s no great shakes to find a general to match one’s own perspectives. It IS a stretch to suggest that my dismissal of Zinni means my allegiance is in question.I don’t support a regime, I support a nation, an ally, which BTW does not mean total agreement on every issue, a mistaken notion your comments suggest. I don’t find Olmert to be the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree and I found his response to the Lebanon situation to have been lame. However, his response to the constant attacks by Hamas from Gaza could have been result of the constant calls for restraint imposed upon Israel by the world community, including our own government. You can’t have it both ways. At the same time, I doubt there are any fears of Muslim outrage in the decisions by the Israelis since a fart with the wind blowing in the wrong direction will spark such outrage from the radicals. Who cares over what a-holes are outraged? With them, the Israelis are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. YOU wouldn’t waste time with such in your personal life.The Palestinian civilian is NOT trapped. They could be demanding that their leaders find peaceful solutions only and cease the rocket attacks. Unfortunately, I have no doubt that few, if any, know the real story of their own situation. They never see the bulk of aid sent to them by other nations. They are kept in misery by the focus of their leaders on Israel. Indeed if anyone’s putting aside concern for their own, it is the Palestinian leadership, who could have raised up the living standards of their own people years ago. But they’re too busy pretending Israel is the bad guy. So, when Pallie civilians are “slaughtered” during DISCRIMINATING targeting of Hamas locations, the question is really a matter of should Israel tolerate an occasional death of their own from the incompetent and impotent rocket attacks rather than risk unfortunate Palestinain civilian deaths by responding with the only message their Hamas leaders will ever understand? I think not. That they haven’t flattened Gaza completely, which they likely have the power to do, should demonstrate your charge of “indiscriminate bombing” is ludicrous. As to your other charges, concerning blockages, blackout, fouling water, etc. is nothing I’ve ever heard from any credible source including the MSM. Where are you getting this stuff? If any of it has any truth to it, there is likely a less malevolent cause or reason behind it, I’m sure. Keep in mind that this “ghetto” is what was demanded by your woeful Palestinians. Israelis living there had to be forcefully removed, so with that in mind, what changed? Simply put, the inflow of Israeli-hating Palestinians who saw the concession as a chance to launch attacks from a more strategically beneficial location. Why wasn’t any of those billions in aid not spent on the essential services they lack? It is because their desire to rid their world of Jews takes precedence over the welfare of their own people. They created their own ghetto. They weren’t herded into one. And within that ghetto, Hamas set up their staging operations. As to your suggestion regarding Puerto Rican groups and the like, which of them were lobbing explosives into the surrounding communities? I think the answer is: none. “… well, my neighbor is lobbing coconuts over my fence, let me solve this, by slitting the throat of the child across the street.”This is stupid and not even close to describing the dynamic of the situation. It suggests the Israelis are targeting civilians. They are not. The Pallies are.”and i believe i’ve earned credit for even addressing the issue head on…”Of course. Too bad you’re so off base on the issue.”very hostile, unwarranted tone”Not so. It’s a mere statement of fact.You can label me “neo” anything if you like. I don’t much care about that. There’s nothing for me to be ashamed of over standing by friends. Sometimes, standing by friends costs one more than one would like ordinarily like to spend. But that’s what it means to be a true friend. Do you not sacrifice nothing of yourself for any friends you might have? If you’ve never felt any level pain by doing so, I’m afraid you don’t understand the concept of friendship. And I’d hazard a guess that if any harm comes to a loved one out of friendship to a nation like Israel, it is likely due to two things: the scumbags messing with Israel, and NOT ENOUGH support from her allies.”i assert, americans always “got” it, they simply understood the inadequacies of a tired, failed neocon agenda in a post-9/11 america, and rejected it soundly, regrettably by swinging to an equally distasteful and empty extreme”This is laughably false. Libs never got if or they wouldn’t be libs. In fact, most never take the time to learn the difference and instead act on only the most superficial, self-centered aspects of liberal policy. And they have no better understanding of who Obama is than they do of conservatism. The rest of the libs don’t care what conservatism is, they just want the power for power’s sake. Our lives might not belong to us, but we are charged with running them properly. Conservatism is a great step in the right direction.
Hash,Here’s another perspective for you. It’s the bottom line.
“Marty’s idiot former pastor…”Just because you disagree with the post he linked to doesn’t make him an idiot Marshall. You are free to disagree. I don’t know much, if anything, about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. So I’m not going to pretend to. I met a Christian Palestinian once at a friend’s house. He and his family were driven off their land during that 6 day war back in the 60s. His family had lived on that patch of land for hundreds of years. Some of his family members where killed. He was deaf and signed ASL really fast. Signed English is a snap, but that ASL…whew! It was difficult for me to understand everthing he said. He is still around. I saw him last year at my friend’s funeral. I should look him up. I would really like to know more about what happened to him and his family and how they ended up in the U.S.
Getting back on topic I offer this:The Surge: Too Vague to Fail
Marty,You have it backwards. Your former pastor’s not an idiot because I disagree with him, I disagree because he’s an idiot. This is much the same as his little opinion piece. Had he not rendered an idiotic opinion, I might not have disagreed. He posits the notion that Israel drew first blood and the rest of us are only focussing on Hamas’ repsonse. This is totally backwards. Furthermore, I find you last link to be equally worthless as it contradicts other opinions I find more highly plausible. His opinion of Petraeus’ actions is lacking in full detail and a better, more detailed analysis is found in Yon’s book. He also speaks of the same Mosul situation with far more plausibility, acknowleging the problems there with a far more reasonable explanation. This explanation is supported by the success of the surge as the added troops provided the missing pieces in Petraeus’ plan, a plan he himself admitted was lacking due to troop strength to seal the deal.In addition, this guy in your link also mentions Petraeus “bribing” Sunnis but fails to mention that they were accepting dough from the enemy beforehand. All Petraeus did was recognize that money drove those particular people, so he offered them more. That, together with their own assessment that AQI was killing too many Iraqis changed their attitudes.
“You have it backwards.”I’m not so sure about that. This conflict dates back before the recent Hamas attack. I’ll do some research.”In addition, this guy in your link also mentions Petraeus “bribing” Sunnis but fails to mention that they were accepting dough from the enemy beforehand.”I think that is pretty much a given. Why mention it? Even back in 2003/04 when my son was there on his first tour Iraqis were being paid by the enemy to set out those IEDs, then the U.S. would pay the Iraqis to show them where the bombs were. Nothing new here Marshall. The point is what happens when the money runs dry from the U.S.
The conflict goes back at least to the time when Israeli statehood was first installed under UN supervision. When that happened, five Arab nations attacked Israel simultaneously. But it likely goes back even further, if fact, back to Mohammed himself. When the Islamic aspect is considered, it surely does, as Jews became targets within Islam’s first years of existence.As to whether or not bribes by the enemy is a given, it would seem that point should always be mentioned when speaking of bribes at all, lest some get the wrong idea. It certainly gave me pause until I researched more deeply. As to what happens when OUR money runs out, I would suspect that the Iraqi government might then take over, or, if things are done effectively, there will be no enemy money with which to bribe them. Keep in mind also that the bribed are not keen on the tactics of the enemy as they cost Iraqi lives as well. Our efforts defend the common Iraqi, and they now are seeing the difference.
“The conflict goes back at least to the time when Israeli statehood was first installed under UN supervision”In researching I found This article on reasons for the current conflict.
Sorry, Marty,I’m not buying this claptrap for a minute. It once again suggests that things were peachy until Israel got cocky. I reject this as another piece jumping in the middle of the story. Hamas has always had as part of its basic ideology the elimination of Israel, period. They have never shown anything anyone could consider a sincere move toward peace, and in fact, peace with Israel is antithetical to their basic nature and Islamic beliefs. The suffering of the Palestinian people is a direct result of Palestinian action. Whatever Israel has done in terms of caging them in is a direct result of attacks upon them. Billions in aid has been sent to Palestine for many decades, enough to build up their communities even without statehood. They are were they chose to be. The onus is upon the Palestinians to prove they want peace by complete and utter rejection of Hamas and the tactics they employ.
“…been significant and tangible progress in Iraq,” ain’t that about the same thingy the U. S. of A. said a few years after ole Saddam took over?
Welcome Tor,And yes, it’s possible to have been the same thingy said back then. Two points: It’s even more evident now that then, and it’s lost in the constant stories of misery championed by the left. The difference of course is that when the right speaks of the progress, they do so without denying the challenges still at hand. The left, however, refuses to acknowledge any progress for fear that Bush might be held in better regard by more people. It’s dishonest to speak of one without any mention of the other. But when there’s political points to be made, which is all that matters to the left, such tactics are employed, uh, liberally.BTW, Tor. If you’re the funniest iconoclast ever, how will I know when you’re being serious or just trying to be a stitch? In either case, you’re welcome to post comments at any time.
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“The suffering of the Palestinian people is a direct result of Palestinian action.”So, does that mean that you’re ok with this Marshall?
Marty,What in any of my comments makes you think I’m “OK” with any of it? My point is that any blame for the suffering of this people is at their own feet for both supporting Hamas and for supporting the notion that Israel is worthy only of annihilation, which is a pervasive attitude whether Israel defends herself or not. So NO!, I say emphatically, NO I am NOT “OK” with it. Here’s a good way to stop it: surrender! Hamas should disarm and disband as a military unit (and by the way, despite the words of the doctor in that video, amongst the first 300 or so deaths, even the Pallies were saying most were military—in addition, how savvy is he in knowing if the targets of which he spoke were military or not? Hamas purposely hides amongst the people of Palestine, often with the blessings of Pallie civilians who share the Islamic ideology upon which Hamas is based. In other words, they look upon these miseries as propoganda to use against Israel and their desire to trash Israel is more important than the lives of their own people). After Hamas disbands, the Palestinians need to reject the attitude that says Jews are dogs and pigs unworthy of life and stop teaching this to their kids. At the very least, Hamas should love their own people enough to separate themselves from civilian population if they intend to make war, but they are too cowardly for that.It’s really a simple thing. When the Palestinians stop hating Jews, their misery, at least that which results from Israeli response to their actions, ends. Also, I could point you to a number of videos myself that would demonstrate the truthfulness of my position. “Jihad Watch” for example has a couple that should serve as eye openers and give you a sense of what is really going on there, as well as what is at stake for the world. Gaza is really nothing more than another example of that which you will learn by viewing these other vids.
Ok…I’ll take a look. Thanks for the info.